Interviewing My Ex On What Went Wrong

I came to Bali to see something through. I came to see where you live, and how and why you live there. And I can see now exactly why. The unapologetic, surprising, chaotic beauty of it. The oddly comforting and sensual smell of rice burning in the fields, a natural Palo Santo. I came to Bali to get to the heart of something. 

I wrote this two years ago in a goodbye letter to my ex, B. I was wearing turquoise pyjama pants and necking an orange Bintang at the Denpasar airport, waiting to board a red eye to escape the island on which I had tried and failed to imagine our shared future. I was doing my best to be brave, but it’s hard to be brave in balloon pants. 

Reader, how far would you go, metaphorically and otherwise, for love?

Now, I wait nervously in my bedroom for B to enter the Zoom. I’m wearing a white t-shirt and my hair is undone in a (massive) effort to look like I haven’t made any effort. I try to fix my face into an expression that says: I’m not nervous to interview my ex. I haven’t thought about your face once over the years. Not once.

It began as innocently as any car crash. I sent B a rose on Hinge, and then we met in a bookstore in Holland Park. We had a stubborn romanticism to us from the start despite the wasteland of the digital dating age. I knew that B lived in Bali when I met him because his location was listed, quite clearly, as London/Bali. But I thought the slash indicated more of a part-time thing, like a summer internship. I also thought it wasn’t a big deal, because history told me I wasn’t going to like my Hinge match much anyway. Boy, was I wrong. 

We moved fast. I went to the South of France with him and his family in week two. Week three, he moved into my flat in London. And by week four, it was time to discuss Bali as a plausible place for us both to live. It had an Eat, Pray, Love vibe to it, but we forgot to pray. Our 3-month whirlwind romance ended in Canggu with B reading an infamous iPhone note I call “The List” that contained a rather exhaustive account of the things I’d done that had upset him. He read it aloud to me, shirtless. His bronzed skin reflected on the surface of his pool like a marble statue. Impenetrable, set in stone.

I’ve long neatly delegated men into two camps: The ones who rock you to sleep, and the ones who rock your world on its axis. B was the latter. B was funny. B was charming. B made me melt. And then B broke my heart into bullet points. I was hurt and reeling. I didn’t stay to talk it through, or hear his side. I fled. And by the time I penned my ten-page goodbye letter with Shakespearean levels of drama, I was sure there wasn’t enough aloe vera in England to heal my burns. 

The familiar outline of his jawline appears on screen. His dark hair is still perfectly coiffed and a little shorter. The same wide, unmistakable smile. 

2 years later, have we learned anything?

SE

Should we start with the letter?

BN

My assumption was my letter was going to put the blame on me, and yours was going to put the blame on you. Then we’d put these two letters together and it would just be two people taking accountability for their own actions.

SE

Sounds like a lovely idea!

BN

But then I got your letter and realised – wait a minute. I’ve written a lot about what I’ve done wrong here, and she’s also written a lot about what I’ve done wrong here!

SE

My reaction to The List was to get out immediately.

BN

I’m not hugely blaming you for that.

SE

Thanks. I think we should talk about why we both think it ended. What we got right and wrong, what we learned, and how our relationship affected our new relationships moving forward.

BN

Good. In a nutshell, your and I’s relationship has ruined every single one of my relationships after. Are we done?

SE

That’s perfect. We can stop there.

*note that this is, of course, what you want every ex to say to you

Should we talk about why it went right before it went so wrong?

BN

I remember the beginning very well. I don’t want to get into too much detail, but we met in that bookshop, right? And you were giving me sass from like the get-go. Moment one. I thought we were having a really interesting conversation, and then I needed the toilet, and you walked me straight to the tube station. And then I just remember looking around High Street Ken and laughing to myself thinking: this was so great, so, how have I got what just happened so wrong? This was a theme with your and I’s relationship. This cat and mouse thing. This push and pull. The wanting what you can’t have. 

SE

I guess I just wasn’t really in the mood for a date. And then you were really great.

BN

There was something about you. This is not an insult, because you’re a very pretty blonde girl, but it’s not that simple. There’s something else. It’s the persona that you have. I thought “She’s pretty, but there’s fire behind that,” and then that suddenly makes the whole thing sexy. Did you find me attractive?

SE

I was definitely attracted to you, but you weren’t “my type”. But from the first date to the third date it was zero to 100. I can’t really describe why that happened. You’ve definitely got an edge. But I don’t think attraction was one of our problems. 

BN

Yeah, I think I’d say the same. I remember first seeing your profile and my gut reaction was – she’s super hot – but I don’t think she’s going to be my type of person. But I’m only in London for a couple of weeks, let’s do this. But then I was like, oh God, she’s got way more about her. Shit.

SE

I was reluctant because I knew you lived in Bali “part time”. There was a wall up and I thought you weren’t real because you lived across the world. I was guarded in those first couple of dates, and then I realised how much I liked you. Which was a problem because I don’t live in Bali.

*Which isn’t exactly Wales

BN

For me it was very surreal because I think we did like four dates in five days? You met my family. And I was so into it. I felt like I was committing, and you weren’t. You were a bit reserved about it all. It was a combination of our amazing chemistry fuelled even more by the fact that it was  a challenge and a chase as well. You know guys, and I think girls as well, can be quite addicted to the chase. As Esther says: attraction plus obstacle equals desire. And the obstacle was there. It was all mad.

SE

Then you said, “Let’s go to France!” And I was reluctant because you were still a stranger, but I can’t forget you saying, “Just come to France and then we’ll have more information.” Good line. We did get a lot of information in France. That’s a little phrase that I’ve held on to elsewhere in my life. 

*as little girls, we’re taught not to go to France with strangers. Even if it’s St. Tropez.

BN

I remember caring so much but also caring so little about sleeping with you, which was a very strange thing. We’d laid on your bed on the end of date four, and I was like, it’s normally a three-day rule. We’re on date four. The physical chemistry was such a joke that I thought there’s no possible way we’re not having sex right now and then…

SE

Then we didn’t.

BN

Right. There were so many moments in you and I’s relationship where I assumed if you were on the same level as me, “Yes” was always the answer. Yes – I want to see you again. Yes – I want to go to France. Yes – I want to come to Bali. I’m like, why would it ever be no? Yes-  we’ll figure out where to live. The distance doesn’t matter if you feel this strongly. I remember always having solutions to it. Six months together, you do three months in Bali, I do three months in London, we do six months apart. I was like, let’s do that.

SE

In the beginning, you had all of the “solutions”, but I wasn’t allowing myself to see that future because I kept thinking we need to know each other more to say, “Yes, let’s do this.” But our trauma started coming up. And you pulled back a bit and started saying things like: I’m 85% in. 

BN

Oh yeah, God, I put some numbers on it. So unlike me. So to finish chapter one, the real lasting memory I have at the end was being at my friend’s wedding and I had this feeling that I’d never had before because my million dollar question in my life, and god damn it, it still exists, is:  Am I just complicated, expecting too much from a partner, have ridiculous high standards, and will never be satisfied and happy? Or have I actually just not met that right person yet? That has always been my question. I’m 30-something-now, and the longer that question went on, the worse it got. But I was at that wedding with my friends and their partners and I thought: I found mine. I think I’d gone so fully in, and then I just felt knocked back. Maybe using the word “love” is strong but – but she doesn’t love me as much as I love her. I can’t remember how conscious it was, but I then started to self-protect.

SE

I felt every bit as into it as you, but wasn’t able to express it because my self-defence mechanisms were already up. I felt like the relationship was ultimately impossible because of the distance, and I think there is such a thing as timing. I had just gotten to London, I was trying to find my feet on the ground there. I didn’t want to get swept up in this romance and lose myself in it. I think it was very much a battle between trying not to lose myself, but trying to honour my very real feelings. I wish that I could have just said “yes” and gone with it and trusted how I felt. But I had all of these questions. What if it doesn’t work out? I was letting fear rule a lot of those conversations.

BN

It’s also completely understandable. For me, it was confirmation that we were not on the same level. Because in my head, if you were on the same level as me, you wouldn’t question this. Then we had a communication breakdown and conflict. I’ve never really been a “conflict” person. And there were these breakdowns because we weren’t communicating about how we felt for each other. 

*note this will not be the last time a British man tells me he’s not really a “conflict person” but he’s, oddly, a conflict person with me

SE

You’ve told me that you felt anger for me that reminded you of the anger that you felt for your dad as a kid. And in some moments, I also felt anger for you that I had felt for my dad.

BN

Yeah, this is the first time I’m thinking of how it links. You were someone who was, in my brain, causing me hurt. So I started to have this horrible mixed feeling of liking you and resenting you. I just remember thinking my biggest vulnerability and insecurity has been found and it is unbelievable in retrospect to see how people can be mirrors in relationships. It’s crazy how everything that we were afraid of came up in a wave for us in a month. I think we were both too caught up in our own shit. I didn’t react how I should have there and go, “That must be difficult. I can understand why that was so upsetting and triggering.” I just stared at the ceiling.

SE

Do you think that is something that you’ve learned since?

BN

I’m learning a lot in this conversation. The biggest mistake I think I made in all of this was letting your initial avoidance to show me love, turn into real bitterness and anger, which again, was identical to my dad. And it would just build up and it was this thing of like that and I think that’s why and by the time you were in Bali, any little thing you did, all of it would come back up straight away.

SE

By the time I’d heard The List, I already had felt The List. When I heard that list, it  felt like you were failing to see me. It felt like I could not get out from under these somewhat trivial, but obviously painful and hurtful things that I did.

BN

They weren’t mistakes. It was the whole feeling of you just weren’t with me.

SE

But we couldn’t get to the root of it, we were so concerned with what was happening on the surface. I don’t think we were able to find peace with each other, and I don’t believe that we had the right tools at that time. And I’m not saying that we are super evolved now, but I’m proud of our curiosity and our courage to look at the relationship and to be actually able to ask: is there something that I can improve? Is there a lesson I can take away from this?

BN

You leaving, for me, was just more abandonment. We required an on-site therapist 24-7 to deal with us. But I don’t know whether we would have ever got to the sort of conclusion that we’re getting to now without the time that’s passed.

SE

What have you learned from our relationship that you’ve taken into relationships since?

BN

I think our relationship has made my relationships since much harder. I never thought I could feel so certain about someone. I thought: this is the mother of my kids. The fact that I felt that within a couple of weeks set a very unrealistic bar. Maybe it’s not an unrealistic bar. But you plus stability – is that out there? I should feel how I felt for you with reciprocated love. And I don’t know even if I would have felt as strong as I felt for you if you’d reciprocated it. There’s a factor of the chase. And there’s this fine line between love and obsession. And now I’ve felt the bar, and my only experience of relationships since has been loads of the stability and calmness that you and I never had, without that real drive and excitement. And so it’s difficult because I’m not sure whether that’s a bar I want to keep.

SE

Do you think that you can coach yourself into loving the stability more than the chase?

*a question I’ve often asked myself

BN

I’ve been trying so long to coach myself into the headspace of being content with someone who I’m not infatuated or obsessed with. Someone who is really good for me and lovely and amazing in so many ways but just doesn’t set my absolute world on fire.  I’ve tried to do that for the last six months. I’m in therapy for it.

SE

There has to be a world in which you can have a bit of both.

BN

I hope so. But they are to some extent mutually exclusive in that you’re likely not going to find someone who is super ambitious, opinionated, questioning everything, humorous, punchy, but also mellow and stable. Those two things don’t work. I’m not talking about you specifically, but generally, people that make you feel calm are not going to challenge you. The opinionated, smart, interesting person is going to challenge you.

*he is talking about me specifically

SE

I’m actually a bit more optimistic about it than you. Because I do think those are conscious choices, even if there are unconscious forces at work. All of that stuff that comes up from childhood, all of the connections that we were not making – those are ego reactions. I was constantly in the ego with you, because I constantly felt challenged, too. And if you can somehow temper that with work, with consciousness, I do think there’s a possibility that you find that balance in love. I could be a hopeless romantic.

*note I am not a licensed therapist or a hopeless romantic and probably am misusing the term “ego” here

BN

Do you believe that there’s a guy out there that is all of these things in one? 

SE

No, I don’t think so. I don’t think there is a silver bullet.

BN

If I’m being honest, and I know this is probably not a very nice thing to hear, I started to not like you. But now seeing it in hindsight, it’s just because I was hurt and feeling resentment. I identified you as somebody who wasn’t good for me. You had hurt me.

SE

According to the Gottmans, there’s four horsemen of the apocalypse that appear when a relationship is ending. Resentment, contempt, criticism, and stonewalling.

*if men can explain things to me, I can explain things to them

BN

Interesting. I think that contempt, that anger, was mutual. I read so much contempt in that letter, but also love. And it feels nice to not feel any of that contempt anymore, personally. And I do feel like being with you taught me a lot of things and yes, unfortunately did set a very high bar for like the early stages of really falling for someone. What’s your conclusion then going forward? Where are you netting out with what you want, when you want it, who are you looking for? What would work?

SE

I think I’ve recognized that I can’t fake enthusiasm in a relationship that doesn’t have some kind of electric spark, not just sexually, but intellectually. I hope I’m able to enter into that relationship more calmly, be less in my ego, have more tools to work through things and get to a better perspective quicker. I hope that I can become that person. What does the future hold for you?

BN

I unfortunately don’t feel like I’m much closer to the answer. Quite excited to start dating again, to feel excitement for someone. Which I have to be honest, on a scale of putting me and you as like the absolute thing – even just a bit below that – I’m down for. I know that I can’t keep trying to force it. But it’s a constant battle with myself of knowing – logically – that his person I’m going to feel perfect with doesn’t exist. I’m going to keep going and who knows.

SE

You’ll get there. I hope you get there.

BN

I hope we both do.

SE

I’m fresh off a very different kind of break up, but we’ll see. It’s good to see you. I feel like I learned a lot in having this conversation.

BN

I might be back in London in May…